Music Industry Insights Worldwide - Equality & Diversity In The Music & Entertainment Industries
"Harmonizing Voices: Global Perspectives on Equality & Diversity in the Music and Entertainment Industries with Saskhia Menendez & Special Guests"
Music is a universal language that transcends boundaries, connects cultures, and touches our deepest emotions. It has the power to change lives, challenge norms, and inspire social change. However, as we celebrate the incredible diversity of voices and talents within the music industry, it's essential to acknowledge that the path to equality, diversity, and inclusion has not always been harmonious.
In this podcast, we aim to spotlight the stories, struggles, and successes of those working tirelessly to make the music industry a more inclusive and equitable space for all. We will delve into the experiences of artists, producers, managers, and industry professionals who are breaking barriers, pushing boundaries, and reshaping the landscape of the music world.
Join us as we engage in thought-provoking conversations, explore ground-breaking initiatives, and celebrate the music that moves us. Together, we will amplify the voices of change and work towards creating a more vibrant, just, and diverse music industry. So, whether you're a music enthusiast, an industry insider, or someone looking to be inspired, "Harmonizing Voices" is your guide to the evolving and ever-inspiring world of music industry equality, diversity, and inclusion.
Music Industry Insights Worldwide - Equality & Diversity In The Music & Entertainment Industries
Grace's Vision: Redefining Gender Roles in Music and Research
Imagine the challenges of breaking into a male-dominated industry as a young female drummer—Grace's journey is a testament to resilience and passion. We had the privilege of speaking with this inspiring musician and gender equality advocate from Liverpool, who shared her remarkable transition from the drum kit to academia. In this episode, Grace unveils the groundbreaking research she's conducting as part of her MA and PhD, focusing on regional gender inequalities in the music industry and shedding light on the unique hurdles women face, particularly in less centralized music hubs.
Amidst the discussion, Grace reflects on the persistent gender divide in Liverpool's music scene and broader societal challenges. We delve into how initiatives like the PRS Foundation's Accelerator Funds are making strides, yet significant gaps in entrepreneurship funding for women remain. Grace eloquently discusses the alarming setbacks in rights for marginalized communities, stressing the vital need for allyship and the amplification of women's voices to foster a more inclusive industry. Her insights are a powerful reminder of the societal issues that intersect with the creative sector, affecting everything from mental health to career advancement.
In a compelling exploration of visibility and representation, Grace underscores the importance of mentorship and reconfiguring music history to include women's contributions. Her innovative project, "Genie," serves as a beacon for gender equality and diversity within the industry. We contemplate its potential global impact and address how structural changes can support marginalized communities. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom and practical advice for anyone committed to promoting equality and diversity in the music world.
Hello everybody and welcome to Music Industry Insights Worldwide, and today I've got the awesome Grace with us. Hi Grace, how are you? Do you want to tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself, where you're from and what you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm from, I'm Grace and I'm from Liverpool, and I am a musician and sort of gender equality activist whose work sort of spans the UK and Europe at this stage, and I'm the founder of Genie, which is an online database of over 380 projects at this point, across 26 countries supporting with gender equality and music. That's fantastic.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for sharing that with us, grace, and do you want to tell us how long you've been in the industry and how you got to this stage?
Speaker 2:yeah. So I've been playing drums since I was about seven and I think that sort of radicalized me because drums wasn't seen as a particularly feminine instrument. And then it was always sort of pointed out. It was like, oh so you're a girl who plays the drums and I think I really noticed my gender when I sort of went to university and I was one of the only women doing an instrument instead of singing and vocals at university and that sort of radicalized me to understand why that might be the case. Right. And then I sort of went on to study an MA in music industry and I'm currently studying for a PhD looking at gender equality in music as well. So I've sort of gone. I'm in the industry still as a musician and activist, but I'm also trying to use research now to sort of support the work that I'm trying to do within the industry as well.
Speaker 1:And I think that's really, really important, because without the research, we don't have the data, do we? And the data actually drives change. So that's really, really important. Yeah, and how have you found that actually, and how have you found the research and what have you come up with so far?
Speaker 2:so I'm still very early on in the research. It's been more getting my head around what my subject is, because even when you start a PhD and you've got a concept, an idea, it changes so quickly and every week you learn something new that you go oh, I don't know if I can go down this route, because my whole research topic is regional gender inequality in music, so where a woman is based and how it affects her career progression in music. Because I can't really find any scholars at this stage who have sort of looked at this as a key barrier to participation. Because I feel like we're starting to talk about class a lot more, but we're not talking about where a person is based and then gender on top of that, I think, sort of compounds it to be an even bigger issue as well yeah, I think that intersectional approach is really, really important.
Speaker 1:I was born to two disadvantaged parents and I come from a disadvantaged background. I do find that money and obviously moving from Oxford to London even those changes have a massive impact on what you can achieve and how far you can go. So impacted women in the music industry and the sort of success we can achieve. Have you found any of those issues from your research or what have you found from your research? That's kind of impacts or implies that there are some issues so I think it's definitely at this stage.
Speaker 2:You can see that there's sort of glass ceiling, of women feeling they can only get so far in a city and if they can't find the role that they need, they either leave or they sort of create a role for themselves, the sort of two routes that people go down. So I'm probably in the latter of. I've created my own sort of role, which is a bit of a hybrid role of everything. So when people ask me what I do, I'm like how much time have you got? Because I do a million things, whereas some people make the choice to go.
Speaker 2:I'm going to move to the center of the industry where there's more access to opportunity. It's like still that discrimination aspect, but there's technically more chance for you to actually end up in. Maybe the role you would like to do because we're still not in the situation where hybrids is has been accepted in the industry in the way that I wish it would. It would be because obviously there's some roles in the industry that you need to be based in certain places to do, but I just wish that there would be more access for people to be based somewhere like Liverpool but then also have a London-based role and sort of flip between the two, because I think that's the way the industry it will benefit from those perspectives.
Speaker 1:Definitely. I definitely think that's a great point, that you will benefit from those perspectives. Definitely, I definitely think that's a great point that you make and actually looking at things and saying that you know a lot of it is centered in London. However, there's a lot of talent that's not in London, that can't always London. So how have you found that like being in Liverpool? Because I've got some strong family ties in Liverpool, as you know already, and I love Liverpool so much and Liverpool's been a culture, a hub of cultural change and music influence how do you find it up in Liverpool at the moment.
Speaker 2:So I think it's definitely a sector that it really punches above its weight as a place, because it's quite small. It's a relatively small place, but there is a really robust industry here, which is really really good, and obviously silly things like the cost of living is a lot cheaper here, so I'm able to sort of do the work that I want to do and be able to afford to live here yeah that's sort of that aspect of it.
Speaker 2:But there's definitely the thing I know to Liverpool is the gender divide, because Liverpool traditionally the music that's come out of Liverpool has been very male orientated, very male heavy in every respect, from the people making the music to the people making the music to the people behind the scenes. And when you're in a smaller scene I think that compounds it even further that there's less access to opportunity and men are hiring from within their own circles and perpetuating that and a lot of the time. I don't think it's a deliberate thing of excluding women, but it's more the deliberate tactic, tactic of exclude, of including men, if that makes sense. They're including the people who look and sound like them and women struggle to sort of enter those spaces still, I think, especially in quite a small industry, what you would say, right, so people that look like you, that are like you, will put you in because you're like us, kind of thing it's comfortable, isn't it?
Speaker 2:and it's like you understand it and you know how to work with it, whereas someone who brings maybe a different perspective, or a person who doesn't look like you or act like you and you don't know how to interact with them in the same way, especially because women often become the token woman in many organizations, depending on the role they do. So, I think for a lot of women now, they they sort of carve their own sort of route, they create their own networks and stuff which excludes them further but includes them in their own networks, which it's like a double-edged sword in a way definitely, and do you find that financial backing and kind of that kind of thing and sponsorships is now starting to improve for underrepresented groups, or do you think it's still the same as what it was?
Speaker 2:I think it's definitely getting better because you've got like prs foundation are doing like the accelerator funds, which are for region specific, which is really good, because they clearly identified that not enough people from regions were applying and being successful for funding. So then they've then put in place a really good sort of um, oh, what's it called like a pot of funding, essentially to support that. So I think that's really good. But I think there's still a lot of work to be done for like entrepreneurship in creative industries.
Speaker 2:It feels like it's sort of a black hole, because there's loads of really good funding for musicians now but say, if you want to start your own record label and stuff which can be incredibly difficult and financially not viable for a lot of people there's there's not really that pot of money to sort of support. It's either you raise like venture capital to do these things, which who's going to be able to do that mostly? And there's also interesting research I'm looking at which women struggle to get any venture capital or any sort of investment in business and if they do, it's in health and beauty. Okay, it's very interesting to say if women want to start a business, statistically they're more likely to get funded if they're in the health and beauty space than if they go into any other sort of demographic very typical, isn't it basically?
Speaker 1:breaking that very like gender divided yeah, that's really sad to hear, actually, and it's also something that breaks my heart, because so many women have so much to bring to the table, you know, in this world, and I think we need to amplify each other's voices and work together and build these allies and allyship, because I think that's extremely important, isn't it for that success and for that diversity and inclusion to happen? What's your thoughts and feelings on equality, diversity, inclusion at the moment in the music industry?
Speaker 2:it's a weird one is because I feel like we've moved forward as a society but we also seem to move backwards, like I think. Especially for me it's at the moment the way the trans community is being treated, not just in the music industry but in a wider social sense. It's sort of the way we saw gay panic in the 80s it's perpetuated now with the trans community and it I find it absolutely horrific.
Speaker 2:So I feel like societally we're moving backwards in many respects, but the industry, I feel like the industry is meant to be progressive because it's full of creative, quite liberal or outwardly liberal people. So it's sort of that weird double-edged sword. At the moment, like in the us, reproductive rights are getting rolled back and it's like all of these things matter to the women who work in the industry as well. So I think that's my problem. It's like, no matter how much in the industry, we seem to all be holding hands and being incredibly liberal and supportive of causes and stuff. There's sort of that weird thing of like, well, if we're all doing that, but society as a concept is moving backwards, it's a weird place to be at the moment, I think, especially and it just has a change of government here and I think it'll be interesting to see how that goes as well, fingers crossed.
Speaker 1:and do you actually find that, obviously, being in the creative industries you know, women are getting more, more kind of visibility and representation? Do you think that also helps inspiring the next generation of talent to come along and say I feel part of this, I am part of this societal change, this cultural shift, because I think music is a massive part of that, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think it's. It's so much easier for you to consider a career in something if you've seen someone else already do it, and I think especially the way the UK education system is is it's not like you sit down and they're like you can be a music lawyer, you can work in PR, you could work in music marketing, you could be a top session musician. Those career paths aren't really taught in the way that other career paths are. So I think it's good to see these tangible role models and, I think, for women to see other women in those roles, because I think, even though we have moved forward as a society, there's a lot of roles we still see as traditionally male.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we still see like traditionally men doing, like the idea of the music mobile. It's most you think of a man most of the time and stuff. So I think that visibility thing it really helps. And I think what I try and do with my work as well, because I do like mentor and stuff is trying to help artists of all genders and just sort of give them the advice and show them that you can be in my position and do the work I do and have the knowledge that I have and be a woman, which shouldn't be a radical thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and shout out to Mona Lisa Scott. She's um the artist manager of um Missy Elliot and she's done such a great job and she's a music mogul herself but often not talked about. Most of the female music was I never talked about. It's mainly men. What could we do to change that grace?
Speaker 2:well, I think for me it's like the history of music is written by men.
Speaker 2:That's the first thing that needs to change, is there needs to be a reconfiguration of that, of how do we include women in these histories? I think liverpool has this problem. It's like when you think of liverpool music industry, you think of one band and you can't really think of many women who have maybe been involved in the scene. So I think from my perspective, it's a bit that's a big thing that needs to change and I think for me personally, it's the work around inequalities due to place in the music industry, because no one's really accepting at this point that it is a massive barrier. We talk about class a lot now, but all the research and the reports aren't talking about place as a barrier, and I'm like. To me that's one of the biggest at this stage in terms of socio-economic as well, because if you can't access the resources you need to get into the industry, it's like you don't need a degree to do it, you need access to resource. That's what you need in this industry 100 100% actually and there's that massive North-South divide.
Speaker 1:How does that affect Liverpool and the people that are up in the North? Because I'm in England so I've always been down South, so I've never really experienced that. What is that difference?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think it's definitely it's the access to resource thing, I think it's the visibility and also funding and even silly things like access to public transport, access to support networks, access to projects like youth funded council funding. All of these things. It's like Liverpool is quite robust in that respect. But in general, if you look at investment in the north versus the south, there is this big divide and then that does have an impact on creative and cultural industries because you've got more access in education, especially in the south, to educational courses through GCSE and A-level. There's a more diverse range of options. Like when I did my A-levels, there was no access for me to do a music A-level, so I had to go to a boys school to do a music tech A-level. No way, it sounds crazy, but these are the barriers that we put in place for me. Young age. I was fine with it and I got. The boys were lovely, but it was a really weird situation to be in yeah, yeah, I can imagine that.
Speaker 1:And what kind of barriers touching on that, actually, what kind of challenges, barriers, have you faced practicing and being in the music industry?
Speaker 2:you know, up north as well, how does small I think I've been quite lucky in that respect because I've sort of managed to carve out my own niche with the things I do, and making gender equality my thing means that I'm constantly talking about the barriers that everyone faces. So I've made that weird niche. That to me it's, but it's more from a young age. The offhand comments it's like oh, you're quite good for a girl, oh, you don't look like a drummer. All of that starts quite early. But I was quite lucky that I went to an all-girls state school. Yes, it was. It was never sort of ingrained in any of us that we couldn't do a thing and it was only when I started to mix with men, when boys, when I got to sixth form and a level and then university, I realized that there was this gender dynamic at play, because from the ages of 12 to 16, which is like the fourth of years, I was never really around boys, so I just never really considered what I did. Strange, right. So I think that was one of the barriers that sort of came up. And then having to go to a boys school to do a music, a level, that would put a lot of young women and girls off doing those type of things. So it's been that.
Speaker 2:And then, weird enough, the accent thing comes up a lot. I've had that a lot on gigs, when, yeah, I've been paid to go to an event and like they really, really happy with me, the client or someone at the party, and they'll go, oh, so where are you from? And I say, oh, I'm from Liverpool. And I'll get like, oh, we'll have to watch out for you. Then, oh, and I'm like so basically he's trying to imply that I'm going to like rob you or something. But my go-to now is always like, oh, can you I don't really get what you mean Like I act stupid, and I go, oh, can you explain that? Because then they can never articulate it back to me Because it makes that sound so bad.
Speaker 1:That's a nice one. Well done for doing that actually and making people think twice, because that's not okay and that's not acceptable. I'm so sorry as well that sometimes you've had to go through some of these challenges just to be who you are and to get to where you are today. That's not okay and it shouldn't be accepted, you know and I'm sorry. So how's that kind of impacted you and the way you feel about yourself and being in the music industry?
Speaker 2:it's strange because to me it's all like water's off water off a duck's back, as my mum would say, because it it's never really like bothered me, because I've always found those people to be ignorant and I was like the one thing I don't think I am is ignorant.
Speaker 2:I think, that's always sort of like it got me through it because I'm like I know I'm smart and I know I'm good at the things I do and I know that I can help make change in a really interesting and good way with the work I do. So I've never really let these people bother me because I'm like I'm confident in my own ability as a person and what I can actually bring and the work I do, and I know the people who work with me like me, so it's like I'm fine with that. So if some random person wants to have an opinion about me who I'm never going to see again- so be it.
Speaker 2:I don't really care to be honest, but obviously that it takes a little bit of time to get there. It's like a confidence thing. But yeah, I'm confident in my own abilities now to be able to go okay. Well, I don't really care what you think. I'm happy, more than happy to take criticism from the people who I should be listening to, and if someone has a criticism about my work or the way I'm phrasing things or do they think I need to change something, I'm more than happy to have a conversation. But it's these sort of closed off comments that I'm like that's not bringing anything yeah, there's no yeah, so I have no interest well done and you know what it takes time to get that.
Speaker 1:You know that thick skin and to have that belief and confidence you know in yourself and how have you found that's kind of enhanced your career and your prospects in the industry?
Speaker 2:so I think for me it's about taking opportunities and applying for things and saying I can do this thing or I can apply for this thing. I think I'd be perfect for that role because obviously there's research that says that women will only apply for something when they meet like 80 to 90 percent of the quality of like the suggest, the things they need. Men will go for 20. Yeah, yeah. So it's like things like that. Whereas I look at things now and I go, what's the worst that can happen? I'll literally get rejected and my life will move on. Yeah, but I've given it a go and I've probably learned something and even if, if I've got to an interview stage, I've made people aware that I exist and they may think of me for something in the future, and that's happened. I've been rejected for a few things, but it's always come back in the future and they've remembered me for something and maybe suggested me for some work or then hired me for another project they're working on.
Speaker 1:So I think for me it's about giving opportunities a chance and just giving things a go and even if you fail miserably, you've got to, because then you'll, you'll learn something and you'll know what you're not good at also look at it as a positive as well, because every time you fail, you learn something out of that failure, and failure is part of success, and not a lot of people talk about that either is, yeah, it's the successful people have had so many failures, but they just don't give up. They keep trying, they have that consistency and they learn from all of those mistakes and all those issues that have happened in the past. Have you done the same?
Speaker 2:yeah, I've literally had about three or four floppy errors in the past like four years. Like just before I started my PhD, I was like unemployed, I didn't have any work coming in. I didn't like I was dead stressed. I was like, how, what am I going to do? Am I going to have to get like a normal job to like try and fund things? And then I just applied for the PhD and I got a full scholarship right to do it and then I sort of got involved in projects and then I created Genie using investment from SoundCloud and it all sort of snowballed. And it's like it is a confidence thing, because when you do get knocked down you're like, oh god, I'm never going to get back from this. But I think if you work in the music industry, you start to realize that you're constantly going to be like this, especially if you're self-employed yes like, self-employment is cruel sometimes but it's also really good.
Speaker 2:There are many benefits to it. But I think for me I've had to just learn to give in to the uncertainty a little bit yes and you're thinking 10 steps ahead at the same time well, you've got to, haven't you?
Speaker 1:you've got to haven't you? You've got to be. You've always got to have your hat on and think about where you're going and what you're doing. I think that's important. And what are your thoughts and feelings at the moment around equality, diversity and inclusion in the music industry?
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, so, like I said, yeah, I think we're we're doing better and there's some great projects that are going on, but my problem is a lot of the like with genie is obviously projects that support more gender equality. A lot of them are absolutely brilliant, but they're underfunded and don't have the resources to sort of really have the impact they need. And that's not the fault of the people running them, because a lot of these people are giving up their free time and sort of their space and their knowledge for free to sort of support other women in the industry, and I think the responsibility needs to be put back on bigger companies to fund these, these adventures in a way.
Speaker 2:And sort of yeah, put money into them because you're gonna get. You're gonna get something back from it when the talent comes out of it, because they have a clear like, what like? They obviously create talent, because I've seen people come out of these programs like producer courses really well yeah so I think that's my biggest gripe with the industry at the moment is all these projects that support women are really underfunded and under supported.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I don't think we've got much of an intersectional approach on that either.
Speaker 2:We look at it as male, but then we're not really looking at the intersectional stuff that goes in between that and that divides a lot of people, whether it be men or women yeah, definitely, I think intersectionality is that is, it's getting better, but I think, especially if you move outside of London, it can definitely be a lot, a lot more difficult, because I think London is a lot more diverse in that respect, whereas you move outside and there seems to still be this very white, very eurocentric, very like cis female. This is, this is the projects that we support, and I think there definitely needs to be this reconfiguration of that as well and sort of looking at that and going how can we include these communities who have traditionally been marginalized and may not have the confidence to apply for these things or may not think it's for them?
Speaker 1:yeah, 100, because I think we're losing talent all the time. If we're not, if we're not supporting the talent where it should be, we're losing it and it's going elsewhere. So what kind of things would you like to see change in the next couple of years around equality, diversity and inclusion?
Speaker 2:so definitely better funding models for projects and project leaders to be able to run their projects. Um, probably more link ups with major companies. Yeah, with a sort of talent development programs, but not ones that are just like we're doing an event for international women's day. It's like no, this needs to be like baked into your company policy, in your hr that you're working with these people and you are actively trying to work with people in communities that you haven't reached before.
Speaker 2:And I think also reaching out to talent outside of london. That's a big one. For me is how can you work with the people who are already rooted in their communities? Because it's like, well, if you're an a and r and you're only based in london and spend your time on even in London or on the internet looking for things, wouldn't it be better to have people rooted in those scenes already who were on your payroll and can tell you what's going on? And like this artist has only put out one song that has 500 streams, but we think she could be the next big thing. Why don't you come and have a listen to her?
Speaker 1:I think that that's really important, actually, because I moved from Oxford to London to pursue my dream actually of being in the music industry. I knew the music industry wasn't in Oxford and Oxford's very student-centric and it's great to be. It's a very diverse place, full of education and it's a lovely place. But, however, there was nothing around music education, nothing around the music industry, nothing really music education, nothing around the music industry, nothing around really around creativity. It was very is very much mundane, kind of you know structures and courses that you could do. That was around where we lived rather than what you really wanted to do. So I had to move from Oxford to London to be, you know, in the place where it was, and do you think that that has a impact on the success that you can have in the music industry as well?
Speaker 2:I think, particularly at the moment because, like I think London is insane at the moment because I go down for work and things but I obviously live in Liverpool and my friends who live there the price of rent and the conditions that people are having to live in this is just obscene. Quite frankly, what I've seen like some of the stuff I've seen of like what is getting put online as a rented accommodation and like that is not fit for habitation and like when you get into your 30s and stuff, do you want to be living with 16 other people? Exactly that is. It's like this is the situation we're putting people in. And then it's like, well, how are they ever going to have a work-life balance if their life is this one room and a flat?
Speaker 2:So I think that's my big problem is the cost of living, especially in London. Like it obviously affects people in Liverpool and other places. But I think if people move to London, it's set it's hard to set yourself up for success at this point. You it's not like it used to be, where you could probably move down and sort of struggle along and get through. It feels like you need money to be able to pursue the type of career you want there at the moment and there isn't that work-life balance like, you're not going to be able to afford property in London unless you're on an amazing salary you're not going to be able to have your friends around.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't afford it just like it's all these silly things that you don't think of, whereas, like me in Liverpool, I'm on track to like have money to buy a house in the future and move out and you know silly things like that. It's like this may not seem connected to my job in the music industry, but it's this work-life balance thing and it's like this wouldn't be possible for me in London, paying like 80% of my salary out to a corporate landlord for somewhere that probably isn't the type of house I'd probably like to live in. So I think these are some of the things that come up. It's it's like I said, all of it is wider political and societal issues that then impact on the people in creative industries, who are traditionally quite underpaid and in quite insecure work conditions anyway yeah, and I think that also affects kind of people's progression but also their mental health as well.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean massive impact on that. So do you think that cultural differences and age differences have a massive impact to play in the way and how much we can achieve inequality, diversity and inclusion at the moment in the music industry?
Speaker 2:I think definitely, because I think there's still this, the sort of the gender divides there. But the age divides is an interesting one, because when I speak to older people and it depends where they're getting the news from and stuff and they're taking headlines about the concept of woke and I'm like woke just simply means not being racist or homophobic, and so it's not that deep. It's like you just don't be a dick, that that's all you're trying to do, definitely that. So even when I speak to people that I do like gender equality, where sometimes it gets a bit of an eye roll and I'm like and I've had people go why do we really need any of that stuff? Now, don't women sort of have equality?
Speaker 2:and I'm like it's easy for you to say that, like you're a man who's worked in this industry yeah, yeah, and you're probably in the top like 20 percent of salaries in this company it's like, well, yeah, of course, you've never had to think about it so I think there's definitely still that age divide thing and I think there's still a bit of an issue between women in age, in age divides, like older women who have maybe fought for their position and then feel a bit nervous to invite other women into the space because they've had to fight so hard for their one space yeah, and it's the space is expanding, the space is staying the same, but with the one woman in it.
Speaker 2:So bringing in women may feel like a threat to your career and it's like I get it. Do you get what? I mean? I've seen it in action, with women acting like that and it's like what you can see from a societal perspective how it's got to that stage and it's like men are competing in a very different way than women are for roles yeah, 100.
Speaker 1:I think that's so true what you're saying, actually, and it's also understanding about. Sometimes they call it the queen bee phenomenon, don't they like? Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what it's called yes, I remember someone sending me some research on this. Actually, I found it really, really interesting. Um, so if you looked at your research and the stuff you've done so far, what are the biggest disparities that you're finding? At the moment especially, we're doing genie and putting everything into a database.
Speaker 2:So let's talk a little bit more about genie, what it is and how it can help other people in the industry so it's actually just an online, it's like a website you can go to and it just features every single project I've found so far which is supporting with equality and diversity in music at this moment, really focusing on gender. So things like producer courses, collectives, online workshops and like Facebook groups, online forums for people to just get involved with. So that's basically where I set it up and you can search it by project type. There's like a tag system or country, and for me it was just a way of making people connect a little bit more, because there's so much interest in gender equality work going on and a lot of crossover, but people don't seem to talk to each other and I'm like you need to start communicating, because best practice and it's so worth talking about yeah, 100%, and it's the first place that I actually know that you can look in one place to find everyone in one specific area.
Speaker 1:Which is what not in one specific area? One place that's from all the different areas in the music industry, which I find really fantastic and inspirational. I think we need more of that. So well done for doing that. What would you like to see, um, you know, in the next couple of years from the work that you've done? What is the impact? What is it you're hoping to achieve from doing this database?
Speaker 2:so I think genie, I wanted to keep building because it's sort of built on community so people can upload their own projects um to the database, because I started it with 300 odds and then since I launched I've had like 70 or 80 projects added, which is really good.
Speaker 2:So for me it's that community aspect of it and sort of seeing how can I advocate for the people who are running these projects now, because I feel like this is a community that's been under service, because we're doing loads for the people who are getting involved in the projects. But what about the people who are running them and doing that on the ground day-to-day slog of getting more women into industry and creating communities for them. So I think for me it's maybe getting more funding to do a report around that, some academic research and then also launching like maybe a genie us. I've started to collect data on it because it's a model that can be applied anywhere really and I think the us for me seems to be the next viable and sort of the place that makes sense for me to sort of expand this to, because there's a lot of interesting stuff going on over there. But they've also got an incredibly strange and horrific political situation, the rights of women at the moment, so and how do you find that like?
Speaker 1:because you work in the UK, you work in Europe and you might possibly work in the States. What are those massive differences that you see at the moment around gender equality and diversity?
Speaker 2:well, I think it's the more general thing the rise of the right wing and populism in every country. It seems we're like we're moving the dial backwards from where we are, from progressive movements, and it's like the fact that we're in this insane situation where it's like could donald trump win another presidency. To me it's like from sitting from a uk perspective. I'm like this is wild when this man literally caused an insurrection. Yeah, it's just all of these things I find so wild and yeah, I think the way it's that wider impact on women that then affects their careers.
Speaker 2:They can even consider, like, if a woman can't get access to contraception or abortion, health care or even child care even or child care, any of these things, then of course that's going to impact on the career she might have, no matter what industry, and then taking it into an industry where women have traditionally been marginalized anyway yes that double-edged sword as well. So I think, yeah, I think for me it's, it's the. The worrying rise of the right wing and populism I think that we're seeing is the biggest threat to the work I do and to the to the progress we could and have made so far.
Speaker 1:I do as a whole. Actually, I think it impacts everybody in the way everyone feels and thinks, you know, and even the way we see ourselves. I think it's a massive a dent in in the way people see us and treat us actually, and it's sad, and I'm so sorry as well, that you've also had to go through some of these issues yourself. So how has discrimination affected you in the music industry and how's it impacted your career?
Speaker 2:To be honest, I think I've been incredibly lucky, which is horrific to say that I haven't really had any major issues or problems. I've worked with a lot of people who've had a lot of very horrific situations. They've been in mine's been more the offhand comments that haven't really affected my day-to-day life, or I've not really been blocked from my career progression and all things like that. I've not had any sort of really horrific situations happen to me, which it's depressing that I have to even caveat that, but that puts me in a very privileged position in this industry. Um, so, yeah, it's, it's more seeing the experiences of others that have sort of affected me more.
Speaker 2:To be honest, and here and god, this has actually happened because I'm from, like I'm a white woman, I'm from quite a comfortable background. It's like I'm I'm quite closeted in that respect, no, like I've not really had the hardship that others have had with those intersections as well. So I've been incredibly lucky. So it's, then about me educating myself on all the things that can go wrong and have gone wrong societally and historically for women, and then how can I counteract that with my work?
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I wish there was more people like you, grace, in the world. God wouldn't it be before we go, because we've literally got five minutes left of the show. So thank you again for coming along. Is there any major wins or successes that you'd like to share with us?
Speaker 2:and also your handles, if anyone wants to get in touch or find out more about the work that genie is doing so genie is a on instagram at genie database and it's also wwwgeniedatabasecom and you can get in touch, find projects and if you know of a project that we don't have, you can. There's a form on the website where you can add a project as well. So I'm always very keen to get more people to do that, and I've got some really fun travels coming up, like I'm going to Copenhagen in September, which I'm really excited for, to support there's a program called Traxby which is for producers based in Denmark, and I'm going to be going over to talk about um genie and all the work I've been doing with that, and next week I'm actually presenting at a conference in newcastle, sort of looking at work around genie and gender equality projects in general and how they affect a career progression in the music industry.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I'm a bit all over the place with my work at the moment, but in a really, really lovely way as well good, fantastic, and if anyone wants to connect with you or find out more, have you got any details that they can connect with you? Any instagram, any facebook or linkedin profile?
Speaker 2:yeah, so linkedin's probably the best. I'm just like grace good when you'll be able to find me because of genie on that. And then, um, my email is gracegood14 at yahoocouk very old school email. If anyone wants to, um, get in touch with me about anything and chat about my work or chat about your work, because I'm always wanting to meet new people who are offering a different perspective than me from my work, because I find it's so interesting to hear about, so how someone might approach the problem differently and then learn from them or they can learn from me. So I'm very open to that as well.
Speaker 1:Collaborations. They're great. Thank you again so much for coming along, sharing your story, your vision and your expertise with us, and I hope to see you again. So much for coming along, sharing your story, your vision and your expertise with us, and I hope to see you again soon. Keep up the amazing. Thank you so much thanks, grace thank you bye.
